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Brentford Families - Clements and Payne (Part 2)

Bob Sheridan wrote in September 2013 about the Clements family from Brentford and also some further research into earlier generations of the Payne family. He adds: I have also included a photograph of Dorothy Payne's wedding to Jim Thomas in 1934. I think it was taken at Burford Road Brentford. It is interesting as it shows members of Payne, Grant and Christmas all together.

Mary could identify some of them but it would be interesting to see if we can name some of the others'. Please get in touch if you can provide any names (try using Ctrl+ a couple of times to enlarge the image, Ctrl- will get you back to normal size).

In 2019 Barry Pearce wrote:
    It certainly looks like it was taken outside of a bungalow on the north side of Burford Road as I believe that in the top right hand corner above the roof tops is the outline of St.George's School.

    It probably is in the garden of number 39 as the photo includes John Payne who in 1936 lived at 39 Burford Road, as described in the 1936 Burford Road Street Directory (see http://www.towntoremember.brentfordcommunity.org.uk/burford.htm).

    The text below the photo also mentions that George Payne and Mary Jupp lived with John Payne at 39 for a while after they were married.

    Interestingly my parents purchased number 39 probably about 1937/1938 (I assume from John Payne as they were married in 1935 and initially lived in West Ealing) and lived there until 1977 when they retired to Selsey in West Sussex, close to where I live in Chichester. Unfortunately they are no longer with us so I cannot confirm this. My mother was born in Brentford in Ealing Road then lived in Bedford Road (which no longer exists) and then Clayponds Lane until her marriage. She also attended St.George's School. My father came from Chiswick.

Wedding party photo: James W (Jim) Thomas and Dorothy Payne, 1934

The Clements Family

Martha Clements' family were well established in Back Lane, Brentford. It was quite difficult to collect all the information and although some questions about Martha were answered others appeared to which, as yet, no solution has been found.

The first difficulty was establishing Martha's father. Her birth record gives his name as Robert but the census records give his name as Stephen. The birth records of the children sometimes give Stephen and sometimes Robert. Martha was living with her father Robert in 1891. It looked as if two families were concerned but no census records could be found for Robert Clements. A death record for a Robert Stephen Clements, who died in 1891 aged 91, suggests that Robert and Stephen was in fact the same person who used both names.

A second difficulty was that the ages of the family members varied by a few years over various censuses. This is not unusual as no written records were kept and often records were signed by a mark, suggesting they could not read or write.

A third difficulty was that places of birth changed. The parishes changed over the years so this is not unusual. However Robert Stephen between 1841 and 1891 is recorded as being born in Ealing, Ealing, Brentford, Twickenham, Brentford and Hampshire! Old Brentford was originally in Ealing parish and Twickenham is not too far away but Hampshire? I have not seen the original census return for 1891 so am not sure if this was not mistranscribed. [Webmaster: I checked and it does say Hampshire; there is an Eling in Hampshire]

According to the census records Robert/Stephen would have been born between 1798 and 1806 but I have been unable to find any birth or baptism records for either Robert or Stephen Clements for this period of time.

There is a baptism record for a Robert Clements who may have been his father, for 1st October 1780 at St. Mary, Ealing. This Robert Clements was born 12th September to parents William and Betty.

There are two possible marriages, between Stephen R. Clements and a spouse with the surname of Barker in 1930 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 358) or between Stephen Clements and Mary HUNT in 1935. The second of these marriages took place at St. Leonard, Heston, which is not far from Brentford.

The first reliable record is for Martha's birth in the second quarter of 1841.

Martha's baptism record gives her actual date of birth as 23rd March 1842. She was baptised at St George's, Old Brentford on 16th May 1841. Her parents are listed as Robert, a labourer, and Mary.

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The 1841 census was taken on the 6th June. At this time Stephen and Mary were living at Jupps Rents, Old Brentford. Stephen was aged 35 and a labourer. Mary was 25 and they had three children, Robert, aged 6, Mary, aged 3 and Martha who was 2 months old.

The only reference I can find to a Robert Clements born in Brentford 1835 is a 1901 census return. A Robert Clements is living with his wife, Ann, at 2 Lee's Yard, High Street, Brentford. He is described as a general labourer and his wife a laundry maid. I am not sure if this is the same person.

Mary would have been born around 1838 but I cannot find any record.

Elizabeth Clements was born in the second quarter of 1845. The only record I can find is a birth index entry (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3 Page 8).

Catherine Clements was born to Robert and Mary Ann Clements in New Brentford. She was baptised at St. Lawrence 30th May 1847. There are no further records for Catherine but there is a burial record for what looks like Caroline Clements who died at the age of two and was buried at St. Georges, Old Brentford, 13th May 1849. The other Clements burials were at St. Georges so with the family's history of name changes this may in fact be Catherine.

Thomas Clements was the next born. He was baptised at St. Lawrence, New Brentford 28th October 1849 to parents Stephen and Mary Clements. Several records exist for Thomas over the following years which will be mentioned as they occur.

At the time of the 1851 census the family were living in Back Lane, Brentford. Stephen, aged 45, is described as a "Fruit and Fish Hawker" and Mary, aged 36, has the same occupation. They now have a son Stephen, aged 14. Stephen was not mentioned in the 1841 census and no birth or baptism record can be found. Could he be the Robert mentioned in the 1841 census and have the same name as his father, Robert Stephen, and changed his name as frequently? Stephen is also described as a fruit and fish hawker. Mary was 12, Martha 10, Elizabeth 6 and Thomas 2.

Charles Richard Clements was born 25th May 1851 and Caroline Clements in the first Quarter of 1854. These dates have been taken from their baptism records. They were baptised together 26th March 1854 to parents Stephen and Mary. Charles Richard and Caroline both died in 1856 and were buried within four days of each other at St. Georges, Old Brentford. Charles Richard was buried 4th June 1856, aged 4 and Caroline 8th June 1856, aged 2.

Sarah Clements was born in 1859 to parents Robert and Mary. She was baptised 6th March 1859 at St. George, Old Brentford.

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Martha was married to William Grant at St. Mary, Ealing 20th August 1860. She was described as a minor. Her life after her marriage and the story of the Grant family has been previously described.

In 1861 the family were still living in Back Lane. Stephen was 58 and his occupation a "Hawker". Mary was 46 and also described as a "Hawker". Four of the children were still at home, Mary was 23, Elizabeth 16, Thomas 12 and Sarah 4.

Mary married William Austin 21st October 1861 at St. Mary's church Ealing.

The 1871 census for William and Mary cannot be traced but in 1881 they were living at 20 Back Lane. William was 45 and a labourer, Mary was 42. They had eight children, Harriet 18, Sarah 17, Rebecca 15, Mary 14, Ruth 9, Emma 5, Clara 3 and a son Jessie 8 months.

The next marriage was that of Elizabeth "Betsy" to George BATES. They married at St. Mary's, Ealing, 25th July 1864. George was a fishmonger, as was Henry, his father.

Interestingly Elizabeth's father has reverted to Robert rather than Stephen. Maybe the crossing out on Mary's marriage record was because he couldn't make his mind up which name he was using!

George was born in Thame, Oxfordshire, to Henry and Martha Bates. (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire Vol. 16 Page 111). By 1851 the family had moved to what looks like 1 Hundreds, Isleworth. Henry was aged 43 as was Martha, he was described as a "Hawker" as were two sons, William 19 and harry 14. A third son, Benjamin was aged 11. George was the fourth son aged 8 and a fifth son, Tom,3. George and Elizabeth were living in Drum Lane in 1871 next to a Beer Shop, the "Jolly Gardeners". George was a Fishmonger, aged 27, and Elizabeth was 25. The "Where Born" column has got transposed with George born in Brentford and Elizabeth in Oxfordshire. They have one son, George, aged 5.

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By the time of the 1881 census the family had moved to 347 High Street, Brentford. George was 36, Betsy 35 and George 14. Three daughters had been born, Betsy, aged 8, Caroline 6 and Nelly 2. Also living with them was Esther Grant. (Esther's story has been told previously and can be found on pages 68 - 72 along with the 1881 census.) Esther was described as a servant but we now know that Betsy was Martha's sister and therefore her aunt. George only lived for another four years and died in the last quarter of 1885 aged 41 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 53). Elizabeth did not remain a widow for long and married William BUTCHER, a widower, on 11th December 1887 at St Mary's Church, Spring Grove.

The new family continued to live at 347 High Street and in 1891 William was 40 and described as a "Fishmonger & Greengrocer".

Elizabeth was 44 and her children Elizabeth (Betsy) 18, Ellen (Nelly) 12 and Mary A. 7 were joined by William's children Mary 18, a laundress, Eliza 14, Sarah 12 and Harriet 10. Hester was still living with then and was also a laundress.

The family had moved to 22 New Road by 1901. William was aged 50, Elizabeth 52 and daughter Sarah 21 was still living with them. Also living with them was George Bates aged 10 described as a nephew.

Returning to Stephen and Mary Clements we can find them, in the 1871, census still in Back Lane. Stephen is now 65, Mary is 54 and Thomas 21, all described as hawkers. Living with them is Martha's son William, their grandson. He is written as being 11 months old but I can find no record of a William Grant being born in Brentford 1870. The eldest William of Martha's children was born in 1860, which would fit if his age was 11 years not 11 months, and the youngest William was born in 1872 which is the year after the census was taken.

The 1881 census shows three generations of the family living in Back Lane. Stephen, aged 74, and Mary 69 were living near Martha 38, already a widow, and her sons.

By this time Thomas had left home and was lodging at 7 Paradise Place with William H. OLDHAM, a "Potatoe Dealer". Also lodging there was Sarah COLLETT who Thomas to marry later in 1881. Thomas was a general dealer and Sarah a punnet maker.

The marriage of Thomas and Sarah took place at St. Mary's Church, Spring Grove 10 July 1881. At the time of the marriage they were both resident in Wood Lane.

At the time of the 1891 census Thomas and Sarah had moved to 3 Ealing Lane, Brentford. Thomas is 41 and described as a "Dealer shop". Sarah is 37. Staying with them is Thomas BATES aged 9. He must be the son of Thomas Clements sister, Elizabeth, and George Bates. He does not appear on their census records as he was not born in 1881 and is living with Thomas and Sarah in 1891. There is a birth index record for Henry Thomas Bates born in the third quarter of 1881 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 84). Ten years later Thomas bates was still living with Thomas and Sarah. The family had moved to 15 Walnut Tree Road, Brentford and Thomas was now a Greengrocer.

The final part of the Clements story is set in 1891. Robert/Stephen was living with his daughter, Martha Grant, at Recreation Ground, 7 Proctors Cottages, Brentford. Robert was aged 93 and Martha 44, although her actual age must have been about 50! Martha's eldest son, William 31, was living at number 5 Proctors Cottages. [Editor: Henry Clements, 64, father in law to William WHEELER was at 6 Proctors Cottages; a family headed by Eliza Bates widow 40 at no. 3 and May Clements was at no. 8 - she was the granddaughter of Sarah MADDOX]

Martha and her eldest son are both described as Punnet Makers and her younger son, also, William as an Agricultural Labourer.

Robert Stephen Clements died in the last quarter of 1891, although his age was given as 91, two years less than his age on that years census. (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 53).

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The Payne Family (Part 2)
William Payne

Bob previously provided details of more recent generations of the Payne family, including George Noel Payne and his father William Alfred Payne who married Bridget HEMMINGS.

The final two of William and Bridget's children were Dorothy and Ada. Dorothy was born 26th August 1904 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 151). Dorothy married James (Jim) W. THOMAS in the last quarter of 1934 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 496). Mary thinks he had stalls on Brentford market. They lived on either Distillery Road or North Road which ran parallel to each other off the High Street. Dorothy and Jim had one daughter Brenda. Dorothy died in in the last quarter of 1975 aged 71 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Hounslow Vol. 13 Page 1486).

Ada was born in 1905 and the birth registered in the first quarter of 1906 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 162). Ada married Harry W. RAYMENT in the last quarter of 1934 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 747). There seems to be little information about them apart from the fact that they had two children, Shirley and John. Ada died at the age of 43 in the first quarter of 1949 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 135). Harry died 10 years later in the first quarter of 1959 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 171).

William and Bridget spent the last years of their lives at Thames Bank House, Goat Wharf, Brentford. William worked for Clements Knowling and lived in Thames Bank House, probably from about 1919 when I believe Jim Clements moved from there. Mary thinks that William was, perhaps, a foreman somehow involved in getting work for the company. Apparently this meant he had to spend a great deal of time in the pub where most of the work was contracted!

William died in 1940 aged 65 but so far I have been unable to find any records of his death. The following photograph shows many of the Payne, Christmas, Grant Webberley and Thomas families but many cannot be named.

Bridget died 31st December 1931 aged 56 and was buried at South Ealing cemetery (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 171) along with husband William and granddaughter Sheila (Sandra's sister).

Mary remembers "that the day of Bridget's funeral the weather was terrible. It had been snowing and the horses drawing the hearse had trouble gripping on the cobbles of Goat Wharf".

She also remembers "Thames Bank House was a large double fronted property with a black and white marble hall. I think it was at one time owned by Pears Soap".

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A newspaper clipping about Bridget's funeral has survived. Bridget and William must have been well known as there were a large number of mourners.

"Although it was raining hard when the funeral of Mrs. Bridget Payne, of Thames Bank House, Goat Wharf, Brentford, took place on Wednesday afternoon, many people lined the narrow little street of Goat Wharf, and many stood in High Street, Brentford, to pay their last tribute to the deceased."

Principle Mourners:-
Mr. William Payne (widower)
Mrs. Webberley (daughter Elizabeth)
Miss Nellie Payne (daughter Ellen)
Miss Dolly Payne (daughter Dorothy)
Miss Ada Payne (daughter)
Mr. John Payne (son)
Mr. George Payne (son)
Mr. Frederick Webberley (Elizabeth's husband)
Mrs. Blissett (sister in law Rosina)
Mrs. Toffrey (sister in law Henrietta)
Mrs. F(Th)urlow (sister in law Amy-Jessie)
Mrs. Neal (sister in law Mary)
Mr. John Payne (brother in law)
Mr. J. Thomas (later to marry Dorothy)
Mr. R. Loveday
Mrs. Pearce
Mrs. Morris
Mrs. Chambers

Floral emblems:-
Husband
Daughters Lizzie, Nellie, Dollie and Ada
Sons John and George
Son in law Fred (Webberley)
Jim (Thomas)?
Sister Margaret and family (Maggie Hemmings)
Mr. and Mrs. Barker?
Mr. and Mrs. Morris and baby Stanley?
Employees of Osram's (Dorothy's workplace)
Mr. and Mrs. Moulford and family?
Harry (brother in law)?
Mr. and Mrs. Saunders?
Mrs. Healey and family?
Mr. and Mrs Padbury and family?
Office and employees of Clements Knowling and Co., Ltd. (William's workplace)
Mr. and Mrs. Pennington?
Mr. and Mrs. Beach (Kew)?
Mr. and Mrs. Sansom (Kew)?
Mrs. Salmon?
Mrs. Austin and family?
Archie?
Mr. and Mrs P. Johnson?
Mr. and Mrs. A. Locke?
Office staff of River Lighterage Co., Ltd.
John and Glad (Brother in law John Payne and Gladys Blissett)
Mary, Jack and family?
Mr. and Mrs. Henrey?
Mr. and Mrs. Evered?
Emma, Sam, Hetty and Harold?
Rose, Charlie and family?
Jack?
Mr. and Mrs. Thomas and family (Jim Thomas' mother and father)?
Mr. Dutton and family?
Clements Knowling and Co.
Mr. and Mrs. Clements
Mr. and Mr. Myatt?
Mr. and Mrs Clements, junr.
Doris and Bert?
H. and W. Jamieson?
Roddy?
Mr. Huggett and Mrs. Ward?
Friends at the "Duke of York"
Clements Knowling tug crew
Mr. and Mrs. Dick Francis?
Rose and Sid?
Mr. Foreman and family?
River Lighterage barge yard
Mr. and Mrs. Jack Cooper?
Friends at the "Rising Sun"
Neighbours and friends?
Mr. Carter (Half Acre)?
Mr. Jarvis and family (Half Acre)?
Mr. and Mrs. Chamberlain?
No. 1 Goat Wharf?
Mr. and Mrs. Jennings and family?
Mrs. Pearce and family?
Aunt Amy?
Uncle Harry and Charlie?

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We can now look back at the William Payne's family before his marriage to Bridget in 1894.

As mentioned previously in 1891 William was living with his father, John, and mother, Caroline, at 20 Bond Street. By 1901 William and Bridget had moved to 19 Bond street. John was still living at 20 Bond Street.

The 1891 census lists John A. Payne 35 a "Labourer in Laundry" born in Chiswick, Caroline 36 born in Isleworth, William A. 16, Caroline 15, Henrietta 11, Mary A. 9, Rosina M. 5 and Amy Jessie 2. All the children were born in Chiswick. The 1901 census lists John Payne 49 a "General Labourer" Caroline 46, Mary A. 20, Rosin(a) 15, Amy 12, Harry 9 and John 6. All the family, including Caroline, are listed as born in Chiswick.

William, Caroline and Henrietta were all married by the time of the 1901 census. William's marriage to Bridget and their life together has, of course, already been covered.

Caroline was born in the first quarter of 1878 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 101). She married Walter FELTS at St. Michael & All Angels, Chiswick 24th December 1899. Walter was 22 and employed as an Oilman. Both Caroline and Walter were resident at 20 Bond Street. Walter's father was deceased, he had been a Coalman.

Two years after their marriage they were living at 33 Mona? Terrace, Chiswick.

Ten years later in 1911 Walter and Caroline had moved to 24 wood Street, Chiswick. Walter is recorded as being a general labourer. They now have a son, Walter Blake, aged 4 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 179). Walter BLAKE married Ada Florence CASTLE in 1931 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1916 - 2005 Fulham Vol. 1a Page 784).

Walter was born in the first quarter of 1878 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 91). The family were living at 1 Boughtflower Cottages, Devonshire Street, Chiswick, in 1881. The family comprised of Walter's father, George 47 a Labourer, his mother, Elizabeth 41, a Laundress and his brothers and sisters, George 20 a Labourer and Emily, his wife, 20 a Laundress, Richard 18 a labourer, Elizabeth 14 a Domestic Servant, James 10, William 8 and Emily 7 months.

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The family had previously lived in Hammersmith. George Felts was baptised at St. Paul, Hammersmith in 1833. In 1851 the family comprised of John Felts 45, a "Coal Heaver", his wife Phebe 54 and sons John 19 and George 17. Phebe, John and George are all describe as "Water Carriers". They were living in George Street, Hammersmith.

George married Elizabeth BLAKE 5th July 1857 at St. Peter's Church, Hammersmith.

After their marriage George and Elizabeth lived at 3 Albert Terrace, Hammersmith. George was a Coal Porter and by 1861 they had two children, Sarah Ann (Hannah) 3 and John George 9 months.

By 1871 the family had grown with the addition of three more children, Richard 8, Elizabeth 4 and James 10 months. George was now 10 and Hannah was a domestic servant living with William Henry BAGNALL, a commercial traveller, and his family.

Hannah was later to marry Alfred HIGGITT, a boat builder on 2nd August 1880 at St. Peter, Hammersmith.

The next few years saw the move to Chiswick as previously mentioned. The family had moved from Devonshire Street to 14 Wood Street by 1891. Walter 13 and Emily (now written as Elizabeth) 11 were both still living at home and had been joined by another daughter, Mary 8. Son Richard 28 was also living at the same address with his wife Elizabeth 27 and two sons, George 5 and Charles 3.

George Felts died in the first quarter of 1894 aged 60 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 82). Very little else is known about Caroline and Walter.

Caroline died in the first quarter of 1930 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3A Page 105) at the age of 51 and Walter died in the first quarter of 1941 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3A Page 473) at the age of 64.

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Henrietta was born in the third quarter of 1880 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 101). Prior to her marriage she was living with her parents, John and Caroline at 20 Bond Street, Chiswick. Henrietta married Samuel TOFFREY at St. Michael & All Angels, Chiswick 24 December 1899. This must have been a double wedding with her sister Caroline. Rose (Rosina?) was a witness for Caroline and Mary Payne a witness for Henrietta. Samuel was recorded as also living at 20 Bond Street, as was Caroline's husband Walter. Samuel's father was also called Samuel and was recorded as a Platelayer.

Samuel was born in Portsmouth and 1879 the family moved to Acton. The 1891 census has them living at 57 Back Lane, Acton. His father, Samuel was 35 and his mother, Mary,34. Samuel was 12 and had a sister, Jane, 11 and three brothers, Harry 9, Stanley 3 and Earnest 1.

After their marriage Samuel and Henrietta moved to 10 Montgomery Road, Acton which they shared with Henry Langley and his family. Samuel was now 22 and a laundryman, Henrietta was 21.

Henrietta and Samuel were still living at 10 Montgomery Road, Acton Green, Chiswick in 1911. Both were recorded as laundry hands and they had a daughter Henrietta Caroline aged 5. The electoral register of 1930 has them all still at the same address.

Very little else is known about Henrietta and Samuel. Henrietta died in the third quarter of 1964 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 71) at the age of 83 and Samuel died in the second quarter of 1967 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Brent Vol. 5A Page 288 ) at the age of 89. Mary Ann Payne was born 29th March 1883 and baptised 11th November 1883 at St. Michael and All Angels, Chiswick. Prior to her marriage she continued to love with her parents, John and Caroline, at 20 Bond Street, Chiswick. Mary Ann married John NEAL, a labourer, 25th December 1903 at Christ Church, Turnham Green. At the time of their marriage they were both resident at 4, West Place, Turnham Green.

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The Neal's were difficult to trace as the name is spelt several different ways. John's birthplace is recorded as Southall Green in the 1911 census. He was one of twins, the other being David, born to Thomas and Mary Ann Neil 3rd October 1875 and baptised St. John's, Southall Green 18th October 1875.

John's father, Thomas, married Mary Ann GOODWIN at St. Mary the Virgin, Norwood Green 12th April 1868. They were both resident in North Hyde at the time of their marriage. William is recorded as being a brick maker as were both his father, William Neal and Mary Ann's father, James Goodwin.

In 1871 the family were living at 5 Hanadium? Road, Hayes (a Precinct of Norwood). Mary, 27, is recorded as being born in Kensington. Thomas, 26, is a brickmaker. They have two children, Alice, aged 3 and Thomas 7 months.

By 1881 as well as John and David two more sons had been born, Walter aged 3 and George 8 months. The family had moved to 6 Studd's Field, North Hyde, Norwood. Thomas is now classed as a Brickfield Labourer as are the other residents on the page.

Alice's marriage to George BIGNELL took place 25th December 1886 at St. Mary the Virgin, Norwood Green, Ealing.

Alice and George soon had a daughter, Mary Anne, baptised at St. John, Southall, Ealing, Middlesex 12th June 1887. The marriage was a very short one as George died before Mary Anne was born.

George was buried at St. John, Southall 26th January 1887 at the age of 23. Alice had another child, a son, Frederick around 1889 he was also given the surname Bignell. By 1891 they were all back living with Thomas and Mary at 33 Antrobus Road, Acton.

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A move to Acton had taken place by 1891. The family were now living at 33 Antrobus Road. Appearing in this census was a son George W. Neall, aged 18, also Henry 8 and Rose 5. The George recorded in the 1881 census is not present in the 1891 census. Alice, already a widow at 22 was a charwoman and her two children Mary Ann, aged 3 and Frederick 1 were living with her and the rest of the family.

The final year John was living at home, 1901, saw a move along the road, unless the road had been renumbered, to 57 Antrobus Road, Acton.

Mary Ann was by now a widow. Alice and her daughter, Mary Ann had left home although her son, Frederick, was still staying with his grandparents. George had also moved out. Thomas had married but the family had suffered another tragedy as his wife had died not long after their marriage and he had moved back, with his daughter Clara, to live with his mother.

Thomas had married Florence Maud CROWE 2nd April 1893. They were both living at 33 Antrobus Road at the time.

The daughter of Thomas and Florence, Clara Florence Maud Neall was born 18th October 1893 and baptised at St. Alban, Acton Green 26th November 1893.

Clara's mother, Florence, may have died in childbirth as she died around the same time Clara was born and was buried 7th November 1893 at St. Mary, Acton aged 25.

Thomas remarried in 1903 to Clara Louise HARMER. Thomas was now a plasterer and they were living at 4 Cheltenham Place Acton.

Returning to Mary Ann and John at the time of the 1911 census were living at 2 West Cottage, High Road, Chiswick. John was now a footman at Park House and they had two daughters Rose, aged six, and Amy 3.

John died in the second quarter of 1958 aged 82 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing vol. 5e Page 106). Mary Ann died in the third quarter of 1960 aged 77 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing vol. 5e Page 92).

Rosina Mary Payne was born 2nd January 1886 and baptised 24th January at St. Michael and All Angels, Chiswick. (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 113).

Rosina lived in the family home at 20 Bond Street, Chiswick until about 1901, the family had moved to 4 West Place by 1903 and it was here that she and her future husband were living at the time of their marriage. Rosina married Thomas WILKINS, a carman, 25th December 1906. Thomas' father, George, was already deceased. He had been a paper hanger. Brother John and sister Amy were witnesses at the wedding. Thomas was 25 and Rosina 21.

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So far I have not been able to find a 1911 census return but Thomas died in the last quarter of 1913 aged 32 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Lambeth Vol. 1D Page 247). Less than a year later at the age of 28 Rosina was remarried to George Charles Earnest BLISSETT who was aged 43.

George Charles was born in Alperton, Middlesex to Joseph and Jane Blissett in the third quarter of 1871 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Lambeth Vol. 1D Page 247). At the time Joseph and Jane, along with Joseph's sister Martha, were resident at New North Road, Old Brentford St. George. Both Joseph and Jane were aged 30 and Martha 23. Joseph was recorded as a gardener.

Ten years later in 1881 the family had moved to 5 Chiswick Terrace, Christ Church, Turnham Green. Joseph was a carman, now 40. Jane had aged considerably and was now 47! George Charles was now 9 and had a sister, Annie L. aged 6, also living with them was nephew Alfred G. EAST. Alfred would have been Jane's nephew as she was born Jane Fanny East according to her marriage index. Her marriage to Joseph Blissett took place in the third quarter of 1869 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1837 - 1915 Lambeth Vol. 1d Page 447).

In 1891 George and Annie had dropped their first names and were now listed as Charles 19 and Lillie 17. Joseph was now 50 and Jane 58. They were still living at 5 Chiswick Terrace. Joseph was now a contractor and Charles a carman.

Charles was unfortunate to lose two wives after short marriages before he married Rosina. The first of them was Laura STOKES who he married in the last quarter of 1899 (see England and Wales, Marriage Index: 1837 - 1915 Hendon Vol. 3a Page 436). They were married at St. Mary, Willesden 24th December 1899 and at the time were both living at 10 Goodson Road. Laura's father, William, was a blacksmith.

Charles and Laura were living with Joseph and Jane at 5 Chiswick Terrace in 1901. Charles, aged 30 and Laura, aged 32 had a daughter, Lilian, aged 4 months.

Laura died in the first quarter of 1905 aged 37 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 91). Just over a year later Charles married a second time. He married Emily Florence HOWARD, a widow, 15 April 1906 at Christ Church, Notting Hill, Kensington. Charles was living at 4 Edenham Mews and Emily at 10 Gladston Mews. Emily's father, John JACKSON, was deceased.

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Charles' second marriage lasted just over seven years as Emily died in the third quarter of 1913 aged 34 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 154). As previously mentioned Charles' third marriage was about twelve months later to Rosina.

Charles died in the second quarter of 1951 aged 79 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 111). Rosina died in the first quarter of 1968 aged 82 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Hounslow Vol. 5c Page 655).

Further research into Charles Blissett shows up some interesting results. Charles and Laura had a second child, Gladys Emma Alice born 22nd February 1902 and baptised at Christ Church, Turnham Green, 4th April 1902.

It seems that this Gladys later married Rosina's brother John. So Rosina's brother married her husband Charles' daughter from his first marriage to Laura Stokes. Gladys Emma M. A. Payne, born 22nd February 1902 died in the first quarter of 1994 aged 92 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Surrey Northern Reg. No. ESB3 District 7571B Entry No. 90).

Emily Florence, Charles' second wife, was a widow when they married. She was born Emily Florence Jackson and married George James Howard at St. Andrew & St. Philip, Kensel Green, Newington 31st March 1902.

It seems that George died soon after their marriage. There is a record of a George James Howard's death in the third quarter of 1902, aged 21, which seems the most likely. (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Wandsworth Vol. 1d Page 335). He was buried in Norwood Cemetery 17 July 1902.

Emily Florence's marriage to Charles resulted in the birth of six children. Twins Rosina Violet and Alice Dorothy were born in the first quarter of 1907 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 159). A son, George Charles, was born in the last quarter of 1908 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 162). George died within a few months in the second quarter of 1909 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 88). A second set of twins, Evelyn and Edith, were born in the second quarter of 1910. A second son, Ernest A., was born in the third quarter of 1913 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 340). As Emily Florence died at the same time we must assume she died in childbirth. Ernest only lived a short time as he died in the last quarter of 1913, during that time the rest of the family must have moved to Kensington (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Kensington Vol. 1a Page 201).

Amy Jessie Payne was born in the third quarter of 1889 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 111). Until her marriage she lived with parents John and Caroline at 20 Bond Street, Chiswick. Amy married Henry Charles Thurlow at Christ Church, Turnham Green on 1st August 1909. Henry was 25 and a van salesman, he was resident at 2 West Cottages, High Road, Chiswick. Amy was resident at 4 West Cottages, which was by then the home of John and Caroline.

Henry was born in the last quarter of 1883 in Hammersmith (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Fulham Vol. 1a Page 201). His family were living at 11 Orchard Road, Hammersmith in 1891. Henry's father, James, was born in Westcott, Surrey and employed as a builder's foreman. Henry's mother, Louise, was born in Barnstaple, Devon. There were four sons, Edward W. aged 9, Henry Charles 7, Frank 5 and Percy 3. A daughter, Alice Maud was one year old.

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The family had moved to 57 Upham Park Road, Chiswick by 1901. Upham Park Road is on the north side of High Road just over a quarter of a mile from Bond Street. All of the family were still living at home in 1901 with the addition of another daughter, Ethel, aged 9. James is now listed as a carpenter as is Edward, Henry is a baker's assistant and Frank a barman.

After his marriage to Amy the couple moved to 5 Quick Road, Chiswick which was their address at the time of the 1911 census. Quick Road is in the Devonshire Road area that has been mentioned previously with the Grant and Wakeman families. Although many of the roads in the area have disappeared Quick Road is still there. Houses in Quick Road were selling for between 600,000 and 700,000 in 2011. If they had known that in 1901 would they have thought it possible in 110 years?

Two years after they were married Charles spent three years in the army. He was signed up in the Army Reserve (Special Reservists) 28th April 1913, reengaged 27th April 1914, mobilized at Bristol 5th August 1914 and finally discharged 27th April 1916. Soon after mobilization on the 13th August 1914 he was sent to France and did not return until the 15th April 1916. During his time in France he served in the Army Service Corps.

Amy Jessie died in the last quarter of 1945 aged 56 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 362). Henry Charles died in the second quarter of 1967 aged 84 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Hounslow Vol. 5c Page 477). Harry Payne is more of a mystery. From census returns we know he was born about 1892 and lived with his parents, John and Caroline, until at least 1911. An extensive search unearthed a baptism record for Henry John Payne, son of John and Caroline, of 20 Bond Street, Chiswick. He was born 11th April 1892 and baptised at St. Michael & All Angels, Chiswick 5th June 1982.

It seems Harry was christened Henry John but later became known as Harry. The 1901 census is not very clear but could read Henry, the 1911 census plainly reads Harry.

On the 1911 census the whole family had been included but then crossed out as, apart from Harry and John, they had left home by this time.

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No other reliable records can be found for either Henry or Harry Payne.

John Payne was born in 1895 but I have not found any records of birth or baptism. We do know that John married his sister Rosina's second husband's daughter, Gladys, who was from his first marriage. (see above)

The marriage took place at the Register Office, Brentford 21st October 1920. John was resident at 4 West Cottages, High Road, Chiswick and Gladys was resident at 2 West Cottages. John's sister, Henrietta, was a witness at the ceremony along with Gladys' father, Charles, who is described as a haulage contractor.

Mary remembers:-
"John started a haulage business with one lorry moving sand for sandbags to Hyde Park. He built up to a fleet of lorries. During the war he lived in Acton and built an air raid shelter. Because of the high water table in Acton it was constantly flooded."

The haulage business may have had some connection with the Blissetts as they were contractors at some point and Mary thinks they had tug boats at Kew Bridge.

Further research into the indexes has given possible dates for John's birth and death.
Birth: John Alfred Payne second quarter 1895 (see England and Wales, Birth Index: 1837 - 1915 Brentford Vol. 3a Page 125). Death: John A. Payne first quarter 1959 aged 63 (see England and Wales, Death Index: 1916 - 2005 Ealing Vol. 5e Page 270).

An unconfirmed source shows that John and Gladys had six children, four boys and two girls. One of the boys was named Robert David John Payne (1933 - 2008) and one of the girls Lillian Gladys Payne (1924 - 1996). Lillian may have married someone with the surname CARTER.

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Links

See also Sandra Graves' summary of the Grant and Payne families
Bob's research into more recent generations of the Payne family
Bates family research
Information about fishmongers and fish hawkers

Published December 2013; updated June 2019